MSNBC "Hardball with Chris Matthews" - Transcript

Interview

MR. MATTHEWS: U.S. Congressman Mike Pence is an Indiana Republican, and U.S. Congresswoman Debbie Wasserman Schultz is a Florida Democrat.

I want to ask you both, members of Congress, to look at this new ad that's out from the Obama campaign.

(Begin videotaped segment.)

ANNOUNCER: A broken economy, failing banks, unstable markets, families struggling. To protect us in retirement, Social Security has never been more important. But John McCain voted three times in favor of privatizing Social Security. McCain said, "I campaigned in support of President Bush's proposal, cutting benefits in half, risking Social Security on the stock market."

The Bush-McCain privatization plan. Can you really afford more of the same?

(End videotaped segment.)

MR. MATTHEWS: Congressman Pence, would we be better off today if we had a portion of our Social Security benefits in the market, in the stock market?

REP. PENCE: Well, near-retirees would not have any change, had the president's plan been enacted. But younger Americans, 20 years from now, I guarantee it; if they were allowed to invest a small portion of their payroll taxes into a personal savings account would receive many multiples -- even with the ups and downs in the stock market that we experience today, many multiples of the 1 percent return on investment that Americans get from Social Security today, Chris.

MR. MATTHEWS: So it's still a good idea to take a portion of our contribution in our payroll tax and put it into the market.

REP. PENCE: Yeah, you know, it is, because, you know, as this bailout suggests, there's a lot of people in Washington, D.C. that have given up on markets, that think the government ought to be coming in and taking the potential to fail out of the marketplace.

But most Americans know this nation is the strongest, the most prosperous nation in the history of the world because we have a free market. And as we develop this bailout plan or any other future reforms in any area, Chris, we have to do so in a way that doesn't put the burden on taxpayers and that also reaffirms our belief and commitment in the dynamic potential of the American free market.

MR. MATTHEWS: Congresswoman, you represent South Florida. Would your constituents feel better to know that their money, or portions of it, were in the stock market rather than guaranteed by the government?

REP. WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: Let me tell you, Chris, any thinking, feeling human being with a pulse that watched the stock market last week would not believe that the right thing to do was to invest Social Security benefits into the stock market.

You would send our retirees on a roller coaster ride, send the next generation of Americans into a risky privatization scheme that last week would have sent their retirement future security into the tank. It is just unbelievable that Republicans like my good friend Mike Pence continue to cling to this privatization notion that sending every one of our future security benefits for Social Security into the private sector is the answer to all of our problems.

What we need to do is come together with a bipartisan solution to shore up Social Security, which, by the way, is not going to have a problem for another 47 years, when I'm in my 80s. So let's take a step back, get together, focus on what the real problems are with Social Security and how we can solve them together instead of continuing to leave people twisting in the wind and leave them potentially without their safety net. That's what --

REP. PENCE: Well, it's a great --

REP. WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: -- (inaudible) -- between Republicans and Democrats.

REP. PENCE: Yeah, it's a great election-year issue. Debbie is actually a real friend of mine, not just what we call out here a good friend.

REP. WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: Yes. (Laughs.)

REP. PENCE: But we disagree on this, but I really -- I don't believe in government here. I think most Americans, given a choice between investing in America and investing in the federal government, which this week, with this bailout, it's the federal government that has failed.

As John McCain said today, you know, it's not just about greed on Wall Street. It's greed on Wall Street and greed here in Washington, D.C. that has created the bailout we have today. So, yeah, I do believe in America. I believe in markets. I think this bailout or Social Security has got to be built on preserving the strength and dynamism of the American free market.

MR. MATTHEWS: Congressman, whose greed in Washington? Fill me in on that. I don't know that. Who's greedy in Washington in this regard?

REP. PENCE: Oh, gosh, come on, Chris. All roads lead back to Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. I mean, the truth is --

MR. MATTHEWS: Okay.

REP. PENCE: -- over the last 10 years -- and there's been some on both sides, but quite frankly, as you know, many liberals in Washington, D.C. have pushed Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac over the last decade to get into a portfolio --

REP. WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: Chris --

REP. PENCE: -- with more and more bad loans, pushing them into more and more parts of the economy. That now is the infection that has gone throughout our economic sector. And I think we need to hold --

REP. WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: All roads?

MR. MATTHEWS: Boy, I agree with you completely.

REP. PENCE: I think we need to hold --

MR. MATTHEWS: I think this has been a mess.

REP. PENCE: -- people in government and in the private sector accountable for the catastrophe at Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.

REP. WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: All roads, Chris?

MR. MATTHEWS: I'm now suspicious of all the money people have been making in the market down here in Washington at Fannie Mae, the money they make in investment banking, all this easy money. And I wonder, is it so derived from a virtual universe that's built on a house of cards?

Let me ask you -- Congressman, you first -- this is an idea from Bill Kristol. And Bill Kristol always surprises us in The New York Times. He's a conservative, but here's what he said. Quote -- he suggests this as a possible solution to the way we deal with this banking crisis. Quote: "Any institution selling securities under this legislation to the Treasury Department shall not be allowed to compensate any officer or employer with a higher salary next year than that paid the president of the United States."

That sounds like a reasonable control.

Why give to these big institutions that we're bailing out with taxpayer borrowed money down the road salaries bigger than they deserve, which is pretty minimal, it seems to me, based on their performance?

REP. PENCE: Well, Chris, if I'm first, let me say, you know, I think it's morally wrong for people that run companies into the ground who are going to benefit from this bailout, that many conservatives are trying to stop, to be heading out of those companies with a golden parachute. John McCain condemned that today. In that respect, I agree with Bill.

MR. MATTHEWS: What about Carly Fiorina? What about Carly Fiorina, with her, what, 20-some --

REP. WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: Twenty-one and a half million dollars.

REP. PENCE: Look, I believe companies --

MR. MATTHEWS: What about that kind of golden parachute?

REP. PENCE: -- companies ought to be able to decide what --

MR. MATTHEWS: And she's advising him.

REP. PENCE: Chris, companies ought to be able to decide what they pay people. But these companies are going to take advantage of what the Bush administration wants to create. And this $700 billion fund --

REP. WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: Well, wait a second. Chris --

REP. PENCE: -- ought not to have people parachuting out in golden parachutes.

MR. MATTHEWS: Go ahead --

REP. WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: You know, this is so unbelievably --

MR. MATTHEWS: -- Congresswoman.

REP. WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: It's so unbelievably frustrating to listen to Mike say, on the one hand, that he thinks that CEO pay should be limited and that they shouldn't be able to leave with these golden parachutes, but on the other hand say that corporations should be able to pay their CEOs what they want.

Look, if we are going to be considering a bailout, which, you know, I hope will be bipartisan, and we have to make sure that we work together and focus on bailing out -- if we're bailing out Wall Street, also taking care of Main Street, the folks that are facing foreclosure and losing their jobs.

But, you know, I really think that the Republicans, under John McCain and George Bush, have been totally inconsistent. Where were the alarm bells a few years ago? No one -- I didn't hear my good friend Mike -- who really is my good friend, like he said -- sounding any alarm bells.

MR. MATTHEWS: Right.

REP. WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: I served on the Financial Services Committee when, under Barney Frank's leadership as the ranking member, when we were in the minority, we talked about the need to limit CEO compensation, make sure that there was a greater -- less of a gap between employees and executives.

REP. PENCE: Chris, I've got to tell you --

MR. MATTHEWS: Congresswoman, do you see that Congress has done its job?

(Cross-talk.)

REP. WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: All of a sudden, they're all for it. It's not really credible.

REP. PENCE: This is a conflict of visions. And Debbie and I have very differing views on almost everything -- not everything; just about everything.

REP. WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: Just about everything. (Laughs.)

MR. MATTHEWS: Okay.

REP. PENCE: But, here, look, people better get used to Democrats in Washington, D.C. deciding what's going to happen in the marketplace --

REP. WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: No, what we need to do --

REP. PENCE: -- because this federal bailout is going to come in -- if it comes in like the Bush administration and liberals here in Washington, D.C. want it to happen, you're going to fundamentally change the freedom of our free markets. That's why --

REP. WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: Chris, I don't know what kind of phone calls Mike has been getting --

REP. PENCE: -- we think we absolutely have to do this in a way --

MR. MATTHEWS: I'm sorry --

REP. PENCE: -- that protects taxpayers and preserves the free market.

MR. MATTHEWS: Let me blow the whistle on you for just a -- ask you to pause on this question. It seems to me back in 2001, right after 9/11, the Patriot Act was rammed through Congress because there was a national concern, close to an hysteria after what happened on 9/11. Of course, I understand it. We all were there.

Then in 2002, right before the elections for Congress in 2002, they whipped through the authorization supporting the war in Iraq. Are we going to get that kind of whip through where you members of Congress and senators are going to have to vote, in a matter of a few hours, on some humongous, humongous new behemoth, $700 billion to trillion-dollar bill, throwing it to the power of one guy, Hank Paulson, this enormous power over our economy destiny?

Are you going to have enough time to think about this? You first, Mike Pence, then you, Debbie Wasserman Schultz, do you feel personally you'll have enough time to think about this thing before you have to vote? You first, Congressman.

REP. PENCE: Chris, absolutely not. Your point is extremely well-made. And let me say, the president was right to step in the gap and say Congress and Washington should do something. That calmed the markets at the end of last week; didn't have a good day today, but there's stability back there. People know something should happen.

But Congress needs to take the time not just to do something but to do the right thing. And piling on $700 billion on a $9.6 trillion national debt, passing that along to American taxpayers, passing legislation that vests all of that control, over a trillion dollars, in the hands of one unelected bureaucrat at Treasury is not what the American people want.

MR. MATTHEWS: Okay --

REP. PENCE: And it's all we're going to get this week.

MR. MATTHEWS: On that point, will you not -- will you deny the president the 218th vote in the Congress if he calls you and says, "Congressman Pence, you're a good friend of mine; I need your vote to pass this thing"? Would you stop it from passage personally, or would you just stay corraled out there and not be relevant? It's easy to vote against something that's going to pass. Would you stop it from passing, Congressman Pence, yourself?

REP. PENCE: Let me tell you, I would stop it from passing, as I did in that three-hour vote when the president pushed through the first new entitlement in 40 years in the Medicare prescription drug bill. I was one of the 25 Republicans that dug in and fought my president.

I respect him. I admire him. But I will dig in and fight an effort to transfer over a trillion dollars in a massive bailout to the executive branch. We've got to -- one thing Debbie and I agree on. We've got to take care of Main Street here while we're trying to deal with Wall Street. The way we deal with Main Street, make sure not to pile debt on our children and grandchildren.

REP. WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: Chris, unfortunately --

MR. MATTHEWS: Do you believe him, Congresswoman, that he would stand in the front of his president and stand on those tracks and say, "This train's not moving"?

REP. WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: You know what? I know Mike Pence, so I believe Mike Pence. Unfortunately he's just not backed up by a Republican caucus that is going to stand there with him. They have let corporate America run amok under their leadership.

In the last two years, under Nancy Pelosi's speakership, we have finally reined in the corporate greed and tried to really focus on accountability. And that's what we're going to make sure we do this week. We are not going to give away the store. We're not going to just give all this unchecked authority to the Treasury secretary. You will see Congress deliberate carefully under Democratic leadership this week. And unfortunately we'll hear more of the same, or --

MR. MATTHEWS: Will you -- Congresswoman, I hate to run, but we're out of time.

REP. WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: That's okay.

MR. MATTHEWS: Will you stand on the railroad tracks and stop the 218? Would you prevent the Congress from passing this if it was your vote?

REP. WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: Unless it takes care of Main Street and average families so that we can focus the economy on working families again, then, yes, I will.

REP. PENCE: Chris, nationalizing every bad mortgage in America is not the solution.

REP. WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: We have to work together in a bipartisan fashion.

MR. MATTHEWS: Finally the voice of a true conservative. Thank you, sir, U.S. Congressman Mike Pence. We don't hear many of you lately, but that's the old breed. Barry Goldwater lives. And U.S. Congresswoman Debbie Wasserman Schultz.

REP. WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: Thank you.

MR. MATTHEWS: Thank you both for joining us.

REP. PENCE: Thank you, Chris.

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